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| Ghosts vs Aliens | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 10 2012, 12:47 PM (1,846 Views) | ||||||||||||||||||||||
| Kruegs Outlandish | Apr 10 2012, 12:47 PM Post #1 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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You probably think that I'm going to ask, "which one is more believable," or "why one, but not the other." I will. But I'll also pit them against one another in the mortalest of Mortal Kombats! Only Scorpion can handle this. I'll also ask what types of predispositions you hold, and whether they are likely to sway your opinions on even the most general or serious theories. If I were to say that witches exist, would you respond, "Biz on a broom," "ah, Biz is a mythos junkie," or "you mean like witch trials in Europe, or modern medicine people and witchdoctors?" Some obvious predispositions of aliens would be:
 Ghost Printer is Ghost Writer. Ghost in the Shell, guys? Harald Hoerwick (.hack)?[shrugs] Ghosts could be sounds, IMO. I'm not knocking that idea. Thoughts? |
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| + Dan | Apr 10 2012, 12:55 PM Post #2 | |||||||||||||||||||||
Better than Red.
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The Doctor is an alien. End of story. Game over. Buh-bye. The Doctor is clearly real which means aliens are real and stuff. Also every little blue box you find is a time machine. |
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Is it too late to tell you that I don't mind. Keep Calm And Chupa No Pilau        
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| InterWebZ | Apr 10 2012, 01:05 PM Post #3 | |||||||||||||||||||||
 
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You're on. If I had to choose, aliens. Life can clearly exist on Earth. We know there are likely billions of other planets out there, and we have no reason to believe that life couldn't form on them. As such, I think that one can reasonably conclude that life has most formed on planets other than our own at some point in the past, and that it is likely to form again in the future. It's also likely that some life evolved somewhere before we did, in which case it is possible that civilisations already exist that are considerably in advance of our own. However, it's also worth mentioning that life other life did evolve elsewhere, chances are also high that it did so a long way away from our own planet, so unless faster-than-light travel is a possibility, we may not see other civilisations for a while. Incidentally, some physicists do believe that FTL travel of some form is possible (and no, I'm not talking about that business at CERN). Link below for the interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive I don't think there is any scientific grounds for disputing the claim that aliens could possibly exist elsewhere in the universe. Some people have objected to the existence of aliens on religious grounds; while I respect that, I don't factor that into my analysis (I also don't believe that divine creation of the human race must inherently rule out the existence of other intelligent life forms of either natural or divine origins, but that is another area of speculation that while interesting, is not relevant to this topic). As for ghosts, I recently posed my views on the "do ghosts exist" thread, not realising it was defunct. My basic view on that is we can't really know for sure. For the record, I'm from a scientific background. My religious views are agnostic. |
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| Kruegs Outlandish | Apr 10 2012, 01:30 PM Post #4 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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i would add that there is probably a need for broad-enough definitions of aliens-thus-life and ghosts. The argument for aliens is that there is too much space in the world for there not to be; but someone like me (The Devil's Advocate) could argue that we probably wouldn't know an alien, or life, if it bit us in the nose. "The Earth was flat if you went too far you would fall off Now the Earth is round if the shape change again everybody woulda start laugh The average man can't prove of most of the things that he chooses to speak of And still won't research and find out the root of the truth that you seek of" - Damian Marley What is considered a life form? If the definition of life form couldn't be broaden to include such things as planets, stars (we are stardust), crystals, and the like (due to, what, lack of evidence?), then why would someone (like me, I suppose), be expected to broaden my scope as to say, "the world is so big, there must be other life," without a means of both proving aliens and disproving that stars, air, or any matter isn't life? At ghosts, this is a bit more tough in defining, and one could easily define a ghost as something that has little to no chance of being anything relevant: "A ghost is what kids who dress up in sheets call themselves; that, or sounds and sights that someone imagines." So, what would ghost be? "Non-physical" visions? Would ghost have to include the concepts of life and death; could they not simply be leftover sounds or color? Weird stuff, and too broad, but if there is a concept to it, then I can very well be narrowed down to something tangible, I believe. |
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| InterWebZ | Apr 10 2012, 01:41 PM Post #5 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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In terms of defining life forms, I like the criteria given on the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life#Definitions Using those criteria, stars fail. Ghosts are a bit tougher. I propose the following: * The consciousness of a living being continuing to operate after the cessation of brain function of said being, or * Entities capable of carrying out complex information-processing but are not made of, nor dependent on, baryonic matter. Edited by InterWebZ, Apr 10 2012, 01:41 PM.
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| Kruegs Outlandish | Apr 10 2012, 02:19 PM Post #6 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Quick adds to stars vs defined life
But you could be right and I could be wrong. I suppose when trying to define something a tricky as life, you gotta start somewhere; I guess that has to be with us, and animal, and plants, and even germs, but apparently not viruses (they are zombie apocalypse)... Didn't quite touch the "proposed" definitions. As far as ghosts: Entities capable of carrying out complex information-processing but are not made of, nor dependent on, baryonic matter. Could they not simply be projections of something that has happened, or could happen? Not knocking this, but I'm not sure whether ghost would even have to be able to comprehend, or think, or be sapience or sentient in the least. How would they best be narrowed down. Sorry in advance if this seems rushed, ranty, or full of errors... |
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| InterWebZ | Apr 10 2012, 02:34 PM Post #7 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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As for stars vs life: * Growth- a star doesn't really "grow", it just increases in volume. It doesn't increase in mass, however (so its density just decreases). Biological growth is more along the lines of taking in new matter and incorporating it into your structure, which stars can't do. * Adaptation- I'll admit that they could change in response to their environment, but as far as we know they don't. Even then, such responses are more likely to be physical changes rather than biological-esque adaptations- more akin to a chemical reaction speeding up at a higher temperature than, say, a plant turning to face the sun. * Reproduction- I contend that stars don't "reproduce" in the star cycle. They die, and the raw materials can be incorporated into new stars, but an existing star has not produced any new stars by itself. As for the ghost definition, we do have a bit of leeway. I think the definition you use is more akin to something like telepathy or clairvoyance than ghosts, but depending on the nature of the projection there is room for overlap. I agree that a ghost need not be intelligent or conscious, although most useful definitions would incorporate consciousness, or interaction with conscious entities. As it happens, there is nothing that rules out the transfer of information to/from the past, and indeed there is much scientific investigation into the consequences that this would result in. We have no idea how to do it, but it would lead to some interesting results. |
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| Kruegs Outlandish | Apr 10 2012, 02:41 PM Post #8 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Good stuff. I hope this topic grows. I'm burned out for now. It's almost 11AM and I haven't slept  . I'll be back! Probably won't sleep though...
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Apr 10 2012, 04:32 PM Post #9 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Interesting scenario of what will happen to the universe in quadrillions of quintillions of septillions of octillions of nonillions of decillions of years that could tie in with ghosts. They could just be afterimages, fluctuations in reality. | |||||||||||||||||||||
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| + Pyrus | Apr 10 2012, 06:55 PM Post #10 | |||||||||||||||||||||
 
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I definitely think we are not alone in this vast, mostly unknown universe. It's just so improbable to me. As for ghosts, I share the same opinion as OFGirl from that other ghost thread. | |||||||||||||||||||||
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| InterWebZ | Apr 11 2012, 01:23 AM Post #11 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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It was about 1AM when I made my last post, as it happens- sorry for not saying goodbye! It's 11AM now and I'm supposed to be studying. I will get round to that soon enough, I'm sure... Do not get me started on this one either- I recall reading an article about this topic before. The basic rundown is that if it is possible for particles to form from random fluctuations in spacetime, then this can, in principle, lead to more complex entities forming essentially out of nothing, including beings just like you or me. The chances are extremely low, but given enough time the probability of it happening at some point becomes non-negligible. They are called "Boltzmann brains" after Ludwig Boltzmann who advanced the idea. The problem of course is, if these brains can occur, why don't we see them? Some cosmological models don't allow for them, some do (we are nowhere near working out which one is the correct one). For the interested, the preprint of one recent paper on them is linked below (the model it proposes does allow for them). http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0611158 |
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| TrunksinSwimmingTrunks | Apr 12 2012, 05:54 AM Post #12 | |||||||||||||||||||||
Formerly known as daman
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Actually thought you were gonna pit them against each other but then I thought no....he can't go that low surely.... well anyway I like limbo anyway....anyway Well in OP theres a character who can make ghosts that make you depressed. She made Luffy and Zoro depressed, so basically she can make the most optimistic person depressed and the toughest guy around depressed....so yeh....but maybe if there's an alien who is already depressed all the time it wont work on them. When I think of ghosts I think of spirits of dead beings, as opposed to ghosts being a separate independent species. I don't believe in them although I get a bit worried about saying that in case they come and kill me in revenge. I mean if someone insisted I wasn't real doubt I'd treat them nicely. If ghosts do exist, I have no preconceptions of their properties either physical (eg-can they go through walls, are they cold, can they talk, are they in our dimension or in another dimension we cannot see) or personality-wise (do they want to kill living people). When I think of aliens I think of living species which originate from outside the Earth's atmosphere. Could be anything....purple men, green men named after musical instruments and gastropods, plants, bacteria or something we don't think is alive (a rock?) or some new family which we can tell is alive but is like nothing we know of. I do believe in aliens. |
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kamizake pyro is a girl? olsiw Make the old spam section viewable plz | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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| InterWebZ | Apr 13 2012, 11:36 AM Post #13 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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I think it's impossible to rationally deny that aliens have a high likelihood of existing unless you can come up with some explanation as to why not a single other planet in the universe could have conditions remotely similar to Earth's, and that life couldn't evolve on a planet with different conditions (neither of which are realistic assumptions). It is worth mentioning though that of the planets that do have life, only a minuscule fraction of them will have intelligent life. For one thing, multicellular life is itself difficult to achieve (the Earth lasted for about 4 billion years with nothing more than microbial life before multicellular beings appeared), and even then, all you have are animals. It's not inconceivable that a planet could live out its entire history without its ecosystem producing anything with human-level intelligence. it was only quite unusual circumstances on Earth that lead to humans, and that was only about 150 000 years ago (vs approximately 500 million with only animal-level intelligence). Of course, intelligent civilised life is still likely to exist somewhere, although whether or not we will ever see it is debateable. If we do, it's also exceedingly unlikely that we would meet on equal terms- obviously a meeting would require technological civilisation, and it's likely that we would either be far in advance of any aliens we met, or they would be far in advance of us. I know which one I'd rather be. |
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| + Pyrus | Apr 13 2012, 07:55 PM Post #14 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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I think it's a bit ignorant to say for fact that aliens don't exist when we've explored very little of the universe. Then again, it's also a bit pretentious to say for fact that aliens do exist for the same reason. We really don't know enough at this point to say either way. | |||||||||||||||||||||
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| InterWebZ | Apr 14 2012, 01:46 AM Post #15 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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We do, however know that there is a phenomenally large number of planets in the universe, and that it is possible for life to form under the right conditions. Based on that, it is reasonable to conclude that other planets do indeed support life, although you're right in saying that we can't be sure either way. The so-called "Drake Equation" attempts to estimate the probability of life existing and forming a civilisation, however the values of most terms in that equation are hard to estimate. |
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